Bell was director of the delegation in Jerusalem of the organization devoted to solving conflicts called ‘Search for Common Ground’. During that period, he articulated together with Palestinians, Israelis and other international experts a system which would do it possible to manage the Old City together, with sacred places for Jewish, Muslim as well as Christian people. He has also been a Canadian and UN diplomat, with missions in Lebanon, Egypt or Irak, among others.

Now he is director and co-founder of The Conciliators Guild in London. There he applies his experience in a project which aims to “bring humanity back to politics” and start a path for dialogue. “It is important to understand how we think, what we need in life and what we are after. If we don’t understand those absolute basics, life can go off in any direction, including one manipulated by political leaders, by social media… we easily fall into traps”, he tells Salam Plan on the phone during this interview.

John Bell speaks to Salam Plan when ceasefire has finally begun after eleven days of escalation of the conflict, which also caused clashes to some extent in countries like the UK or Spain. Be it either through hate speech, graffities on religious sites, actions like the cars honking against Jewish citizens in London… British monitors said antisemitic hate increased 500% and islamophobic hate 430% these days in the UK.

“If we don’t understand what we need in life and what we are after, life can go off in any direction, including one manipulated by political leaders, by social media… we easily fall into traps”

This conflict goes beyond Middle East. Why does it matter so much to citizens around the world?

I think it matters a lot because of several reasons all combined. The first is, this has gone on for too long. It’s decades that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is unresolved, and the Palestinians are under occupation. And people are fed up with it, especially as it evolved into a situation where, despite Jewish and Israelis sense of victimization, most people view Israel as a powerful country and the Palestinians as a very weak people. And therefore, the oppression is clear. It’s just time.

The other issue, though, is a bit deeper. I think it’s in people’s psyches, obviously in the Middle East, obviously in Israel-Palestine, but in the West. And in the West, because actually Israel’s creation is very deeply linked to the West. Both in terms of why Jews went to that area to begin with and the Western world helping to create Israel. So, all this is very in our psyches: there is guilt, there is anger, there’s a sense of injustice perpetrated against the Palestinians… And I think all that is playing out.

I’ll mention other two factors, that, I think, are overlaying into it: one is that there is now a growing trend across the world, global, for fighting against injustice. Whether it’s racism in the United States, injustice for refugees or injustice against the Palestinians. This is a growing trend. What I see is increased attention and concern for the Palestinians from that regard, and they are oppressed people, in my personal view.

Another more practical point, is that Jerusalem is very important. It’s symbolically more potent. And let’s not forget, that although the battle, the extreme violence was in Gaza, it was not really about Gaza: it was really about Jerusalem. Jerusalem triggered it, what Israelis were trying to do in Jerusalem triggered it, Hamas fired its first missiles about Jerusalem… Jerusalem is the symbolic totem of the conflict between Israelis and Palestinians, and even in a religious-political level.

“Putting order into our mental house is a requisite for being, may be, more intelligently religious”

Politics and religion get mixed in this conflict, which -in the end- leads to violence and religion to get mixed as well. How could that be preventable?

In the Middle East, for Israelis in my view as well, identity is on spectrum which can be very, very purely political -example: a communist in Lebanon or Irak-, to the political religious, where ones heritage, whether Muslim, Jewish, or in fact even Christian, weaves into a political ideology.

This is part of the landscape of the Middle East, of today. For the moment, an unavoidable dimension of the nature of Middle East politics is that every single country has religious-political parties, where the party uses religious heritage to develop the political ideology.

Does this reflect well on the original premises of the religion? In my personal view, no. But many would disagree with me: they view their religion as a social justice mission as much a personal mission.

So, I think, your question is rather huge. If you want to disentangle the role of religion in politics, one has to go back to what is the actual purpose of religion to begin with. Religions in the Middle East, even scripturely, all of them -more Islam and Judaism- have had social political components described. So, it’s easy for followers to grab those and run with them in a political fashion. It’s not new, this has been done for ages.

Christians’ scripture is a bit less so, the pure scripture, but we have seen also Christians run with these things at a political level, whether it’s Crusades or otherwise.

So, the disentangle that you are talking about, requires a lot of what I call cultural work in the region to a much deeper understanding of the purpose of religion and its outlook at the world. In my view, this is a kind of hijack of religion.

Where should that ‘cultural work’ start?

I think it’s wrong for me to stall people with ‘here is a formula, run with it’. Because that is actually the opposite of what needs to be done. I think what is important, and this is the purpose of my organization ‘The Conciliators Guild’, to understand how we think, and what we need in life and what we are after. If we don’t understand those absolute basics, life can go off in any direction, including one manipulated by political leaders, by social media… we easily fall into traps.

So, I think that cultural work needs to begin with a much, much -and I’ll say ‘much’ ten times-, much better understanding of the human behaviour. Why we do X and not Y, why we think we are doing X and we are doing Y… We are really unclear about these things, we are chaotic. Putting order into our mental house is a requisite for being, may be, more intelligently religious. People have a lot of assumptions of what religion is, what its purpose is, those who play it politically as we are seeing…

I mean, look at a living example. I am personally against it, but there some of the Jews taking homes in Sheikh Jarrah or who are preventing (Muslim) Palestinians from accessing Al Aqsa mosque, which led to this whole conflict raise… Some, some [he emphathizes] where acting on a religious basis. Meaning in their religion this is correct. I don’t agree with this, but one has to wonder with them, with them what are they trying to achieve, why is it that they’re going about things this way.

These questions are not asked sufficiently, so I think the cultural work begins there. I don’t think it begins by law. It’s necessary, but in a way it’s a superficial answer. Human behaviour is more important than law and rights.

“What matters, is that a political solution is found that satisfies core needs on both sides sufficiently, but not infinitely”

Jerusalem is a holy city for Judaism, Christianity and Islam alike. It should be a place for peace, as all these religions stand for it, and yet it is a place of conflict instead.

That’s right. I have lived in Jerusalem, and it’s a city which I am very, very fond of and scared of, both at the same time.

Jerusalem is what you say it is: it is a triptrych faith city, it’s also potentially and probably should be the capital of both Israel and Palestine. And it’s also a city, meaning people just live there and they need water, electricity, schools… There are human beings living there who need normal functioning.

It’s all those things, and it needs to be attended to in all those levels.

My view is, and it is very difficult to get people off this idea, but I think it’s worth working on: as long as any single group wishes to look at Jerusalem as only theirs, the exclusivity dimension, it will be a problem. We’re sharing it in some fashion or another, a tremendous amount of work needs to be done there as the how.

Jerusalem doesn’t belong to any of the three and to all of the three. And if people can’t get their minds around that statement, with its own contradiction, people have to learn to live with these contradictions. People want simple answers: ‘this is mine’, end of story. I just think that is a fantastic emblem of how we need to think differently in the future.

You have been working for years in different projects and diplomatic delegations for peace. One of them was with the NGO ‘Search for Common Ground’ in Jerusalem. What did you find?

I worked on a very long project in the Old City of Jerusalem, which is important, because that is where all the major holy sights are. What we did was a project developed by Canadians working closely with Israelis, Palestinians and other international experts. We designed a ‘special governance system’ for Jerusalem Old City, with the heavy involvement of third parties, non-Israelis, non-Palestinians in the security, the archeology and some of the other managements of the hot issues in the Old City. I still think that has value, it is part of the mix.

Further work needs to be done on something, which is very difficult to tackle, but critical: how does one look at the religious attachments to the Old City and the holy sights in a different way. And then, how does that translate politically. I know people who have begun to work on it. Whatever is done on that level, it needs to pursue mutual needs’ satisfaction: Jews, Muslims and Christians, all have to be satisfied sufficiently in the Old City through that results.

Is that possible? My view is yes. It can be. The issue is not if they can be satisfied, the issue is how extensive are their demands. If their demands are too intense, too extreme, than you cannot get mutual needs’ satisfaction. One party dissatisfied, and that’s a cause of conflict. Then, it’s a law of life: you will have fighting, killing. Whereas if you do have an arrangement that is satisfactory to the basic needs of the sides, then there would be much more calm.

“As long as any single group wishes to look at Jerusalem as only theirs, it will be a problem. We’re sharing it in some fashion or another; work needs to be done there as the how”

Benjamin Netanyahu and Mahmud Abbas have been the leaders of both sides for very long now, and with no elections on the Palestinian side and with too many elections in Israel (five general elections in just a couple of years). Do you think new leaders could possibly help to restart a path to peace?

Yes, with all respect to these individuals. I hope that Palestinians and Israelis now know who these people are and what they can do. Because they have been around for a while, so they’re know entities. Their capacities, their wishes, their strengths and weaknesses are known. And we are where we are. Therefore, I would say yes: there is absolutely a need for new blood.

There are no magical solutions, new leaders do not equal sudden positive, because societies are always fragmented and divided and fight each other. That risk exists on both sides, that new leaders may improve things, but it can also be -if they are strong enough- we may find a lot of problems on both societies too. Nevertheless, I don’t think these current leaders are providing any more value at it. So the risk has to be taken, despite what I said.

What, do you think, would be the first step for the stuck peace process to start again?

I’ve always felt that the idea that Palestinians can a have a normal democratic electoral system while occupation remains, is false. Because the occupation creates so many strange, aberrant behavior patterns for the Palestinians. Any people, not only Palestinians, would not respond to normally. Checkpoints, control over people’s lifes, inhability to make decisions on most basic things in life, such as economics, very limited control over your future… do not equal the right basis for a democratic system.

But, and I blame the West here, it’s the West which mixes everything up. It’s Oslo [Accords of 1993] and the West, and half measures on occupation plus half measures on democracy… I don’t think it’s the right sequence. I think what needs to be done is the creation of a Palestinian state first, first! So, there is clarity on that, and then the Palestinians can go about running their own lifes, which is what an election is about, after all. I think we are still suffering of the assumptions of Oslo, twenty years on, which were wrong, in my view.

“I’ve always felt that the idea that Palestinians can a have a normal democratic electoral system while occupation remains, is false”

Would you stand for a two-state solution, as the UN recommends?

I think the two-state solution has become a slogan, and I think the one-state solution is a slogan. What matters to me, for the Palestinian people and for the Israeli people, is that a political solution is found that satisfies their core needs on both sides sufficiently, but not infinitely.

You cannot have everything, you cannot have your cake and eat it too. You have to give stuff up. Giving stuff up, in my view, means because Israelis currently have a lot more than Palestinians, Israelis have to give things up. This is for me a given. And it’s not easy for Israelis for a million reasons, but they have to face that to have stable neighbours, Palestinians and beyond, they need to give things up.

Whether that plays out as a two-state or a one-state, or two-state plus…, or one-state minus…or a confederation. I don’t care. I can probably take a guess as how it is gonna play out, if it ever plays out, if the political will is there. But do I care about the ultimate form? No. What I care is that the peoples on both sides are satisfied sufficiently, not totally, because they won’t be.

So, is it likely to be the classical two-state? No. Is it gonna be one-state? No. Probably something in between.

And will we see it in our lifetimes?

I have a feeling you are younger than me. You might see it, I am unlikely to see it. But, may be, I might see progress.

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La entrada John Bell, former mediator in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict: “There is a kind of hijack of religion” se publicó primero en Salam Plan.

Muhammad almost lost his life one day when he walked on the street with a small mobile phone in his pocket. It was the time when Daesh (also known as ISIS) had instilled its terror regime in Mosul, the city which got to be the terrorists most important stronghold in Iraq. The terrorists ‘police’ shouted at him from the distance. Neither the “normal” trousers Muhammad was wearing nor the mobile phone which they had not discovered yet, were permitted. He panicked.

“I began banging on the houses’ walls. I was so in fear, I didn’t realize they were not doors. I couldn’t breathe. If they searched me and they found my mobile, they would kill me”

“I began banging on the houses’ walls. I was so in fear, I didn’t realize they were not doors. I couldn’t breathe. If they searched me and they found my mobile, they would kill me”, he remembers now on the other side of the phone line from Mosul. He started to cough so loud, that other people began to gather around him to try and help him. They offered him water. Given the crowd that had come together, ISIS guards left. “Those people saved my life”, he says convinced.

“We want Christians to come back”

Today Muhammad is one of Sawaed al Mosuliya volunteers (Arms of Mosul), an NGO which has restored Saint Thomas church in the heart of Mosul’s city centre. The took out the rubble, cleaned up and reinstalled the light.

The terrorists destroyed the church, as well as the famous Al Noori mosque. Saint Thomas served as prison during ISIS regime. Muhammad explains the Christian temple means a lot to Mosul’s people after the horror they had to endure: “During the liberation battles in Mosul, there was no running water. The only source of water was an old well inside the church. This church was a source of life”.

“During the liberation battles in Mosul, there was no running water. The only source of water was an old well inside the church. This church was a source of life”

“Since I was a child, Muslim and Christian families used to visit each other for the religious feasts, such as Christmas. There was a church where we used to go to. I miss that, I want those traditions to come back”, Muhammad adds.

As for Ziad, the volunteers’ coordinator, he recalls that before the terrorists took the city, he shared life with his neighbours and friends without caring about the religion of one another: “It wasn’t an issue. We didn’t even know who was Christian”. But now he knows 15 families on his street and wants to rebuild their houses to help them come back.  

Why focusing on the houses of Christians, given that Daesh persecuted everyone, also Muslims? “Because tens of thousands of people who fled are coming back, but not even one Christian person who lived here has done the same”, he explains. Two of his best friends used to live in those houses and they call him almost every day to know how the situation is. “They want to come back, but they’re afraid”.

>>> You may also read: Three religions under the same roof: this is Berlin’s next revolution<<<

Their work restoring the historic Saint Thomas church, thanks to the financial support of USAID, was the first step to be able to use the temple again for a religious service. At the same time, it revealed a symbol of hope in the city being reborn. “When we published the pictures on internet, people from other parts of Mosul began asking where this church was. They wanted to visit it. Some of my Christian friends cried and thanked us”, Muhammad says.

“Since I was a child, Muslim and Christian families used to visit each other for the religious feasts, such as Christmas. There was a church where we used to go to. I miss that, I want those traditions to come back”

They had already planned an interreligious event in the church just before the coronavirus pandemic exploded, so it had to be postponed. Now there is a man from Erbil who goes from time to time sent by the Christian community of that city. He is finishing the electric work on the church. Ziad and Muhammad have seen how the neighbours of the area usually go to him to offer him some water or other kind of help.

The volunteers of Sawaed al Mosuliya were founded in June 2018, when they began cleaning up the rubble and rubbish of tens of houses. The founded a supermarket whose incomes go to the people in need. They also help orphans and take part in interreligious events hand in hand with Christians and Jazidis in favour of a peaceful together living. “We’re doing all we can so that everyone comes back. They’re all welcome”, Ziad underlines.

Bring back normality to defeat ISIS

When the terrorists took Mosul back in 2014, Ziad was doing his master, he had a shop and lived with his family. “Life was good. When Daesh arrived, their mission was to destroy life in the city and its residents. They forced me to flee to Turkey with my family. They took my house and my shop”.

Ziad estimates 25.000 homes were destroyed. Now he wants to “bring back normality as a way to defeat Daesh”. He got married one month ago, has a minimarket and his doing his PhD in Modern History at the Faculty of Education. He hopes to find a full-time job when he finishes his studies.

Muhammad had to close his mobile phone shop when Daesh arrived, and his Economics studies had to wat. Instead of graduating in 2015, when the terrorists dominated the city, he graduated in 2018. He stayed in the city, but his brothers -who worked in the media sector- had to flee to Europe and they have not seen each other since.

Both of them dream of a “stable and peaceful life” in their city. Together with other volunteers, they will go on cleaning up the rubble of war and the damage the terrorists left behind.

“We’re doing all we can so that everyone comes back. They’re all welcome”

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La entrada Muslims bring church back to life in Iraq after being destroyed by ISIS: “We want Christians to feel welcome” se publicó primero en Salam Plan.

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She has been a member of Angela Merkel‘s Council of Ministers since the beginning of the Chancellor’s Office in Germany in 2005. She has been Minister of Defense since December 2013 and was Merkel’s right-hand woman in the German Christian Democratic Party (CDU) since November 2010. Before Defense, she led the Ministry of Employment and Social Affairs, and previously the Ministry of Family during one term each.

On her new Twitter account, Von der Leyen defines herself as “mother of seven [children], born in Brussels and European at heart”. In Europe there are almost 26 million Muslim citizens, according to a 2016 study by the Pew Research Center. This has been the political evolution of Von der Leyen with respect to this part of society:

An agreement for ​​value education only among Christians

At the beginning of her political career at federal level in Germany, the then minister for Family, promoted an “agreement for [value] education” ​​only with representatives of the Catholic and Protestant faith. It was in 2006 and both the Social Democrats and the Central Council of Muslims in the country criticized the initiative, considering it biased.

“The same way we learn our mother tongue, we have to first clarify our own position so that later we can open ourselves to other religions,” Von der Leyen justified. But she did not convince even all the members of her party. “If it’s about education, it’s also about an intercultural dimension,” the president of the Turkish-German forum of the CDU and Muslim politician Bülent Arslan, told Spiegel Online.

The policy was also criticized for limiting the educational alliance to religious organizations, without taking into account those who do not profess any faith nor did she invite teachers and educators to take part in the initiative.

Rabbis and imams in the army

As Minister of Defense, in November 2015 she was open to include imams as spiritual advisors in the Army for those soldiers who profess Islam, the Die Welt newspaper reported.

Five years later, this issue has been put on the table again, with the arrival of rabbis as spiritual advisers in a pilot project, as reported by the German media last April. Defense has committed to also incorporate imams, although it has not given a date to specify this measure and has explained that there is not a single Muslim body with which to make the necessary agreement.

Ursula von der Leyen argued that the measure – very much discussed – was an “important signal”. “Precisely in times in which anti-Semitism, religious polarization and narrow-mindedness in many places are booming,” the candidate to chair the European Commission found it important to also provide Muslim and Jewish soldiers spiritual advice, just as Catholics and Protestants already did, Deutsche Welle informed. She acknowledged that “they have expressed this desire for a long time and it is a justified wish”.

There are approximately 3,000 Muslim troops in the German Army and some 300 Jews, in addition to some 53,000 Protestant soldiers and 41,000 Catholics, according to official estimates.

Muslim soldiers, “indispensable” for missions abroad

In Germany there are between 4.4 and 4.7 million Muslims, according to official figures. In an interview in 2016, Von der Leyen tried to value German Muslim soldiers when asked about a “multicultural” army. “We have soldiers [of] Turkish, African or Arab [origin] and many German-Russians. In missions abroad we currently have some 170 Muslim soldiers. They are indispensable. With their knowledge of the language and culture, they provide us with access to the corresponding population, “she said to the Berliner Morgenpost.

Although this way she linked Islam to migration, and putting Muslims as foreigners is one of the discriminatory elements denounced by the European experts on islamophobia -like the Runnymede Trust-, it is necessary to indicate that the current leader of her party and its Spokesman in the Bundestag have stressed that Muslims are part of Germany just like any other person of another faith. Von der Leyen has spoken publicly in favor of “diversity” in society.

The much-talked-about visit to Saudi Arabia, without hijab

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La entrada Ursula von der Leyen and her view on Muslims in Europe se publicó primero en Salam Plan.

She is cofounder and chair of Muslim American Leadership Alliance (MALA), which works to empower these US citizens within their communities by sharing their stories and “normalizing” that one can be Muslim and American at the same time. Bottom line against stereotypes is as well: Muslims are not a “monolith”. MALA is the first organization to collect oral histories of Muslim Americans, which are then archived in the Library of Congress of the United States.

She avoids pointing at anyone specific with the finger but acknowledges that bigotry and hate not only against Muslims, but also against other minorities, has risen in recent years in the US. This week she is visiting Spain to share her experience at Madrid’s Casa Árabe and at Barcelona’s Blanquerna Observatory.

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What does being both Muslim and American mean nowadays?

Being Muslim and American is a chance and a space right now. We’re in interesting times. From my perspective, I was born and raised in the United States, both of my parents are Muslim, I identify as a Muslim, but I also come from a background where my siblings are married to a Catholic or a Hindu. I’ m first generation, I grew up with American values, but also with a strong sense of my Muslim heritage, culture and identity.

I think one of the things being Muslim and American right now is that we are living in one of the best countries, where there is freedom, there is ability to practice, to pick up your identities, to assimilate, whether you are first generation, whether you are refugee, whether you are immigrant or if you are fourth generation of converts.

I think the challenge right now in the United States is that there is discrimination, there is bigotry… With over 750 stories that we have collected in MALA over five years, one of the things which does come up is discrimination, issues with assimilation, dual identity or multiple identities, trying to find belonging, within your community and outside… The whole purpose of having pride in being Muslim and American is the cornerstone of our work, so that people can speak freely and openly about their own experiences, whatever it may be, whether you are secular, whether you are orthodox…

“Having pride in being Muslim and American is the cornerstone of our work”

Is it usually not possible to speak freely about one’s religion? Do people feel frightened to do so?

I don’t think they feel frightened. I think they feel more that, it’s almost like that’s just not my only layer of identity. I don’t just want to be known as a Muslim, I’m also Iranian, Turkish or Bosznian, and I’m also a female, and a mum… Muslim Americans, especially, are not a monolith. They’re one of the most diverse groups in the United States: socially, politically, economically… it’s the broadest social demographic [group].

Your siblings are married to a Catholic and a Hindu. With the current atmosphere, sometimes it seems this together living of different religions or beliefs is not possible, but they are a clear example that it is.

There is actually a quite large number of stories that we have collected of people of mixes heritage. One of the things that I have seen from my experience it that diversity and coexistence of Muslim Americans is phenomenal, wonderful, and it’s possible.

I have the impression that in previous years Muslims rather stayed silent and hid from telling others what their beliefs are. But this seems to be reversing now and Muslims are going public, like going out of the closet. Was there a need for it?

That’s actually a wonderful observation, and to be honest, when we started MALA we would get two types of people, that would be like ‘well, I’m Muslim, [but] I don’t want that label and I don’t want to identify myself, just because of all the baggage in the media, because I don’t want to be associated with this stereotype or this stereotype’.

I think that people now are a lot more at ease, because there is community cohesion, support, social media [and] people’s voices and representation is heard. People are a lot more forthcoming and also have, still, pride in saying that they are Muslim, which is beautiful, because you can be Muslim, American… you could have multiple layers of identity and you could still exist and that’s who you are, that’s who I am.

Zainab Khan presents herself as a “human being” who is Muslim, among many other things. © Salam Plan

Is it also, may be, the reaction to the hate speech of politicians like Donald Trump against Muslims?

I think that in the United States there is a very polarizing social-political climate. Hate crimes have been under increase, and not just for Muslims, but for Jewish people, for people of faith and for people of minority backgrounds.

There is a lot more need for representation in politics and public policy, in civic engagement… It’s wonderful to see Muslim Americans run for office and to see the richness of the diversity of elected officials that we have in the United States compared to other countries. But we still have a long way to go to continue to build bridges, to continue to show solidarity and social cohesion, and also to celebrate our differences and our similarities. When we look at both, I think that’s when we are able to really see that this is how we live together: with shared values.

“You can be Muslim, American, have multiple layers of identity and still exist”

Islamophobia is becoming the new normal, isn’t it?

Hate is never supposed to be the norm. And any type of bigotry, prejudices… that is something that we have to really grab by the horns and address it. The rhetoric around minorities, groups, communities… are labelling. Putting Muslim Americans as a monolith… These are all harmful towards society.

We can continue by showcasing the diversity, the leadership, the incredible amount of recognition and what communities have done… The Muslim American communities… it is a community of very highly educated resilient people.

What is the main prejudice you are tired of listening to and that you feel it is the main issue we all need to address?

That all Muslims are a monolith. That because you are a Muslim, you must be x, y and z. You must be ultra-rigid, or you must be an immigrant, or you must be a refugee, or you must be uneducated, or you must be close-minded. These are all prejudices that we hope to dispel and continue building bridges.

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La entrada Zainab Khan, mentor of Muslim Americans: “Muslims are not x, y and z. We are not a monolith” se publicó primero en Salam Plan.

All three of them live in Berlin. They are part of a team that is working to build the first great sacred place that will host three religions and all the others which want to take part, welcoming atheists or agnostics as well. The doors of ‘House of One‘ will be wide open to everyone.

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“Every time I go to church, I think: ‘go back to the mosque,’ because I do not like church benches at all. It just seems super nice to sit on a rug, or lie down. I have already gone to mosques in which I have rested and in the church I find that it is often cold,” exemplifies Bohner, one of the pedagogical leaders of the House of One Foundation.

Her colleague Caliskan says: “Now I am studying the different schools of thoughts and traditions among the Jews, and the more you dig, the more comes out. I will prepare myself a scheme to have an overall perspective, but this wealth of traditions simply impresses me a lot“.

“Of course it is another religion and another tradition, but I understand it very well and I feel very close”

— Esther Hirsch

Hirsch, who belongs to the team of theologians responsible for the project, admits: “I can recognize very much of Judaism in Islam, in its thoughts, in the type of prayers … Of course it is another religion and another tradition, but I understand it very well and I feel very close,” admits Hirsch. She adds: “And about the Christians, I was surprised, because I thought I knew them very well, because I live here, in Germany, and there are more Christians than any other. But I also got to really know them thanks to the dialogue [between us]. And it seems very nice to me how they shape their community, how it’s a lot about doing things together and being together more than the theological aspect.”

The foundation stone of House of One will be laid in April 2020 in Petriplatz, Berlin. © Salam Plan

Three temples united for a better co-existence

At House of One there will be a synagogue, a mosque and a church under the same roof, although in different rooms. They will be connected by a central hall to share celebrations, prayers, exhibitions, concerts and -above all, exchange ideas and get to know each other better. There will also be space for a café, a library, meeting rooms …

A 138-feet high tower will allow visitors – despite its discreet height – to have a panoramic view of downtown Berlin. And, if plans do not change, they will even be able to observe each one of the temples from above, since the ceilings will be glazed so that natural light illuminates the rooms completely.

“Light is something that unites the three religions, but also the meeting, a place to meet. [It is about]  individual parishes being able to meet, but also having a meeting place in the center for everyone,” Bohner explains. “It is important that from the outside it is not recognizable whether it is a mosque, a church or a synagogue, so that we focus on what really matters: opening paths to the other,” adds Caliskan, who is also the pedagogical head of the plan. Another essential part of the project is that each sacred room will be open to visitors of other beliefs or without them, says Hirsch.

“It is important that from the outside it is not recognizable whether it is a mosque, a church or a synagogue, so that we focus on what really matters: opening paths to the other”

— Cagatay Caliskan

The project is being planned to the smallest detail of the building. Within each of the religions which were mentioned, there are different branches or schools of thoughts and there can be no issue left unresolved, because the aim is that everyone can feel at home while they coexist with people who do not think the same in some aspects.

Thus, for example, the mizbeaj (altar) of the synagogue will have to be movable, since for Jews it must have one or another location according to which school they belong to. In some cases they celebrate the prayer with the altar in the center of the room; in others, they need it next to the wall … Or in the case of Jews and Muslims, some prefer the prayer without separation between the gender and others need separated spaces. Or Protestants avoid religious images and decoration in their churches, while Catholics do prefer to celebrate their rites and faith with them.

There is so much detail to think about, that they keep on thinking about some details of the building. In fact, it was just recently when it was decided that the building would not have side windows, but that all the natural light would enter from the top. The last change in the architectural project has been to incorporate an independent access for women’s prayer in the mosque, as there are people who prefer it that way within the Muslim community, Caliskan explains.

This is how House of One will look like from the inside. © KuehnMalvezzi

Every option is respected

Every option is respected. And it is not easy to reflect that in a building. The Kuehn Malvezzi studio, which won the tender for its construction, works hand in hand with representatives of the interreligious foundation so that they do not miss anything. And they have no choice but to re-plan the building often or add aspects that had not previously been taken into account.

The foundation stone will not be laid until April 2020, but the building plot was already put at their disposal by the Berlin Administration more than ten years ago. It is not just another building site of the many that remain free in the heart of the city, which is still architecturally recovering from the post-war period and the fall of the Wall that separated the Germans.

Now, in the Petriplatz, very close to the emblematic television tower of the city, you can see the foundations of a church demolished by the GDR, on which that communist regime built a parking lot. The little ruin that was hidden underground belongs to the umpteenth reconstruction of the first church that appears in the historical documents of Berlin, when the city was getting born in the Middle Ages. When the regional Administration found these foundations on public land, it asked a nearby parish what they wanted to do with that place, since it had belonged to the church in the past.

“Actually, we have enough churches. We want to do something new. The social structure of Berlin has changed a lot: we have to involve other religions”

“Actually, we have enough churches. We want to do something new (…). The social structure of Berlin has changed a lot: we have to involve other religions,” they replied. And they looked for partners without even knowing exactly what to do with that piece of land at first. It was not the big institutions, but small parishes or movements that ended up coming together and devised a project of coexistence in peace that now takes shape. The ruins of the last church which was built on this spot will also be visible to everyone visiting the House of One.

Foundation ruins of the last church erected on the building site, near the TV tower. © Salam Plan

Antisemitism has risen 20% in Germany

This week the German Ministry of the Interior has published crime statistics related to political motivations. They include hate crimes and show that anti-Semitic crimes have amounted to almost 20%, with 1,800 registered cases. Islamophobia receded slightly, going from 1,075 crimes in 2017 to 910 in 2018. Christians in Germany have also been attacked for their beliefs, although in a much smaller proportion: 121 crimes registered in 2018 and 129 the previous year. These last two types of hate crimes are being measured since 2017.

Have they suffered any threat at House of One for their project? Nothing remarkable beyond some comments on social media, Caliskan says. His colleague Esther Hirsch acknowledges that the majority of hate messages are motivated, because the Muslim partner of the project is Forum Dialog, which belongs to the Hizmet movement, better known by the name of its leader, Fetthullah Gülen.

Since the attempted coup d’état against Erdogan in Turkey in 2016, his Government launched a persecution of all those Turkish citizens belonging to the movement or sympathizers of Gülen, as he considers them responsible for the attempt and has put them on the watch list of terrorists. These accusations -which in only a few cases have been brought to trial- meant the expulsion of thousands of judges, lawyers, professors and other professionals from their public positions. Turkey admits that it has kicked out 15,000 people, while Amnesty International assures there were 130,000 people, based on their requests to return to their job, according to Europa Press news agency.

House of One stays out of what it defines as a “political problem”. On the other hand, the project began long before that failed coup d’état. For the time being, it is the only bigger controversy that shadows them and they do not believe that their interreligious parish will generate rejection in the majority of the population. They consider that the more open they are to welcome everyone, the better they the acceptance will be and the better this place will work as a meeting space for people from different backgrounds.

Three spokespersons of the three religions working together to build House of one, before the building plot. © Salam Plan

Thanks to crowdfunding and subsidies

For now, they have collected almost 10 million euros only through private donors from all over the world – “really”, says Hirsch-, without accepting large donations from institutions or organizations. The latter ones have been rejected to maintain the neutrality of the project.

Another 10 million have been given by the Berlin region and 10 more have been obtained from the State. With another 10 million more, which they hope to get through more small donations, it will be enough to complete the project. And they take it for granted, that they will get the money they still need.

While they look forward to the laying of the foundation stone, with a countdown included on their website, they already promote their work for a peaceful coexistence from some nearby offices and another additional headquarters. Among other things, they receive student visits or organize common celebrations; the next one being a “common prayer for peace and religious freedom”, as reflected in article 4 of the German Constitution, now 70 years-old. It will be next Tuesday, 21st of May, at 5PM (for more details, click here). This time it will be in a church, but events vary and sometimes they happen in a library or in a mosque or anywhere they leave at their disposal.

House of One is not a project for Berlin, not even for the Germans. It is a project designed for people from all around the world. And surely, not only Berliners will be curious about it, but also the growing number of tourists visiting the German capital every year. In 2018 they broke their record, with 13.5 million visitors.

For the moment, those who want to have a look at Petriplatz will be able to observe the foundations of that church inherited from Berlin’s first days. But in a few years – they do not dare to commit themselves to a specific number – an ambitious interreligious parish will change the skyline of central Berlin.

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La entrada Three religions under the same roof: this is Berlin’s next revolution se publicó primero en Salam Plan.

Marmash herself is a Jordanian lawyer who has an in-depth knowledge of women’s legal rights in North Africa and the Middle East and was therefore recently invited by the Spanish Agency for International Development Cooperation (AECID) to take part in a set of conferences of women’s rights in Madrid.

She talked about “women who are afraid to tell their own family” that they are being a victim of gender violence, she talked about laws which oblige adult women to depend on a male figure to exercise their right for property -just as it occurred in Spain only some decades ago-, she exposed the wide persistence of child marriages, “an open secret”, and assured there were 40,000 cases in Morocco in 2017, and another 10,000 in Jordan.

For this leading lawyer, who declares herself a Muslim feminist, patriarchy is a common phenomenon to the misleading historic interpretations of all religions. “I believe all religions begin with fair standards for women and men and, throughout history, they get changed to favour men,” she says to Salam Plan.

The international NGO she directs, AWLN, has set the priority to establish the path for women to be able to “take part in the construction of their societies” ameliorating the civil legal system of the Arab countries. Samah Marmash has seen how more and more men in the region are getting on board in the fight for equality, although not as actively as she would wish.

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Which accomplishments for women’s rights would you highlight in the Arab countries for the last years and what are the main issues you still need to address?

There were so many success stories in the region. For example, in Palestine they have created an Alimony Bureau; so, if a woman gets divorced [and does not get the legal maintenance from her ex husband], you can go to the office and ask them to file a case and get your money, even if the husband is not paying. This is very good to empower women economically and to show men, the Government will go after you and not after the vulnerable person.

In Jordan, we started something [similar] last year and it is on this year’s budget. We are at the beginning of the road, but the good example is Palestine. And we took another good example of Morocco. In Morocco they have family courts, where they review cases of violence against women, family cases or religious topics as well. It is [another] good example, [which] we want to reflect in our country in Jordan for the family violence cases.

The main issues you need to look at now are gender violence then?

Yes, violence against women; the right of nationality, to reflect it on their children [who for now cannot adopt the nationality of their mother in places like Jordan]; to stop child marriages… it’s for all of the region: North Africa or the Middle East. It’s a disease that is currently there. These are the main topics we should highlight now.

“Child marriages are a disease in North Africa and the Middle East that we need to stop”

What is the role of men in the Middle East in the fight for women’s rights?

They didn’t have a role at all. Actually, they were against the feminist movement; not all of them, but a large and good number of them. Recently, in the past ten years, we got them on board. We knew how important it was to make them our partners, because we cannot change attitudes if we work on one part of the community forgetting the other half.

When we started to work with them as partners, we had their voices with us. But they are not as large of an amount as you would wish. Most of them know that this is the trend nowadays, so [they] may talk with you about the same issues, they may try to show you that they are feminists, but in fact -whether they are helping or not- they are reflecting their attitudes on their policies, even in their homes, which is how you know if [their commitment] is true or not.

So, there are large voices of men who are supporting [the feminist movement], but not so many are truly on the ground. At least, we have a good start to work with them. Actually, they are helping us. In our Parliament in Jordan, for example, we have a few men who do believe in women’s rights which need to be reflected in the laws. In Lebanon, we [do also] have a good amount of fair men. In Syria now, nothing is clear yet.

“The attitudes of men on their policies, even in their homes, is how you know if their commitment to women’s rights is true or not”

During your conference, you talked about the influence of sharia on the rights or lack of them for women in the Middle East. To which extent would you say Islam is the reason of patriarchy in the region? Or is it tradition or…?

I believe all religions begin with fair standards for women and men and, throughout history, they get changed to favour men. It is not only in Arab countries. Europeans used to have it, but they used civil rights to change this idea.

We are still suffering from it, because after all the wars we have been through, we have not been able… the bad effect of wars is to give you traditions that you don’t have, ideas that you don’t have, bring you backwards, not forward… So, what we have is mostly in the name of religions, but it’s not us, it’s not religion. It’s the global force to keep persons backwards.

“I believe all religions begin with fair standards for women and men and, throughout history, they get changed to favour men”

You define yourself as a Muslim feminist.

Yes, and nowadays we have feminists from all the religions which are in the Arab region. Throughout the history we used to have Muslim feminist women, but the history does not highlight their efforts. For example, Mohammed’s first wife used to defend women’s rights, that is why she supported him.

But then again, this example refers to one of his wives, something which people often reject or do not understand.

Yes, exactly. But during her lifetime he did not marry any other woman. He did after her death, and according to our religion, he did so, because he wanted to gather so many people. For example, he wanted to show that it is good to marry a widow, so he got married to a widow. According to our law, there was a reason for every marriage, according to Q’ran it is not preferably to be married to more than one [woman], but there are certain circumstances and hard conditions where you can do so.

But, again, people change religions according to their needs: if you ask one sheikh, he will tell you ‘to have more than one wife is good’ and if you ask another religious man, he will tell you ‘no, there were conditions in the Q’ran under which you can do this’. Religions are always like that.

Samah Marmash, executive director of the Arab Women’s Legal Network. © Salam Plan

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Ramia Chaoui does not want to go alone to the demonstration of this International Women’s Day in her city, Barcelona (Spain). But not only because it is more pleasant to attend in good company, but because she knows that she will be exposed to contempt or worse by some non-Muslim women. This happened last year to other Muslims like her who took to the streets to demand equality for women.

This time they have organized themselves in advance to go together and create what Chaoui calls a “safe space”. “Among all the things that affect me as a woman, like the rest, I also want to claim my presence on the streets and my space and my place”, this insurance consultant and Youtuber, better known as Ramia Schannel on social media, explains.

“Feminism is not having one [unique] conception of being a woman but rather granting women the ability to be anything they want and to give them the opportunities to make the choices for themselves”

— Hajar El Jahidi, European Forum of Muslim Women

“Feminism is not having one [unique] conception of being a woman but rather granting women the ability to be anything they want and to give them the opportunities to make the choices for themselves”, says the advocacy coordinator of the European Forum of Muslim Women based in Brussels, Hajar El Jahidi.

This Canadian-Morrocan woman makes clear that the situation described by Ramia Chaoui is not an exception: “There are feminist groups that often forget or exclude minority groups such as women of color or religious minorities.” Jahidi assures that “we are impacted by gender inequality the same way as other women”, in addition to facing discrimination because of their faith.

“The feminist movement in Greece has tried to impose another oppression, telling us what we should do and what not”

— Anna Stamou, Muslim Association of Greece

Anna Stamou is director of an export and import company in Athens. She is also the marketing director of the Muslim Association of Greece. “All women, regardless of their religion or ideology, have been discriminated against the men priority,” she recalls and asks for unity for women.

Stamou does not feel identified with the feminist movement in her country, though, because she says that “they have tried to impose another oppression, telling us what we should do and what not. The feminist movement in my country considers Muslim women oppressed, brainwashed and unable to form their own opinion.” Even so, this 8th of March she will participate in the mobilizations and the strike for the International Women’s Day, to stand up for women’s equality rights.

>>> You may also read: Muslim and feminist? These women show it is possible<<<

Neither submissive nor stupid

It is the demand for equality that Muslim women ask not only towards men, but towards some non-Muslim women who insult them or believe that they can not be feminists. They repeat for the umpteenth time that the veil or hijab is a personal and religious option. They do also condemn those policies in countries where women are forced to wear it.

The recently appointed High Representative of the UN Alliance of Civilizations (UNAOC), Miguel Ángel Moratinos, even highlighted this week on Twitter that in his fight for equality for women he will also include “the perception of Muslim women.”

“I do not accept that other women educate me, because I believe that I have enough tools, knowledge and critical thinking for me to rethink myself the questions of how I choose to lead my life and my spirituality,” explains Chaoui, from Barcelona.

“I do not accept that other women educate me, because I believe that I have enough tools, knowledge and critical thinking for me to rethink myself the questions of how I choose to lead my life and my spirituality”

— Ramia Chaoui, assurance consultant

The chairperson of the Citizen Platform Against Islamophobia and CEO of the Halal Institute in Spain, Isabel Romero, says that “of course” she takes part in the feminist strike and will be demonstrating. She asks “to leave us alone with what we wear or what we do not wear. If there are Muslim women who decide to cover themselves with the hijab, because they think that is part of their religious commitment, they are not hurting anyone.” By the way, she does not wear a headscarf.

Not dressing with a veil, the discrimination suffered by Romero is minor, she admits. But the tables turn when others learn about their faith: “I have been a professional for many years and at the moment in which I identify myself as a Muslim woman, it seems that I can only comment from that axis (and) it seems that I cannot give an opinion on economy, society or anything, just because I am Muslim.”

“I have been a professional for many years and at the moment I identify myself as a Muslim woman, it seems that I cannot give an opinion on economy, society or anything”

— Isabel Romero, Citizen Platform Against Islamophobia

Faced with the image of a submissive woman, Romero emphasizes that different rights of women such as divorce or inheritance have already been established in the Quran. The Islamologist and professor of the University of Barcelona, ​​Dolors Bramon, who is not a Muslim, also considers that the sacred book of Islam was revolutionary for women’s rights. She explains it in her book Ser mujer y musulmana (Being a Woman and Muslim)  (Ed. Bellaterra) and explained it HERE on Salam Plan.

Aurora Ali is secretary general of the Muslim Association for Human Rights, based in Spain. “Muslim women are not clothes”, she answers to those who believe that headscarf and feminism are not compatible. “Wearing the hijab right now is an act of bravery, a feminist claim, because ‘it is my faith and I am going to wear it and I decide on my body’, ” she claims. Like Romero, she recognizes that on the street she has the “privilege” of not being an object of hatred because she is Muslim, since she has chosen not to wear hijab.

“As soon as they see that you are a Muslim woman the hate speech is directly the typical one of: ‘your country’, ‘in Saudi Arabia’, ‘in Iran’ … Then the attacks follow and then the terrorist insult, after [calling you] ‘submissive'”

— Aurora Ali, Muslim Association for Human Rights

She says that she has suffered the so-called “gender Islamophobia” on social media. “As soon as they see that you are a woman, you are a Muslim, then the hate speech is directly the typical one of: ‘your country’, ‘in Saudi Arabia’, ‘in Iran’ … Tatata, tatata”, she lists with glut. And she adds: “They start with this, then the attacks follow and then the terrorist insult usually comes, after [calling you] ‘submissive’. And this happens to virtually every woman who is visibly Muslim in their social networks. ”

She confesses that it is precisely that comparison of Muslims to terrorists the insult that has hurt her most, but not when getting it on Twitter or Facebook, but from the Administration in training courses against violent radicalization and terrorism. She cannot go into detail on this, due to a confidentiality clause she signed.

Double glass ceiling

Equality, equality, equality. It is the concept cited by all these women when asked about their claim this International Women’s Day. They also fight for the empowerment of women, the end of the so-called “patriarchy“, against glass ceilings to reach high positions or the discrimination in the labor market, in society … struggles equal to those of other feminists which for Muslim women sometimes become double as difficult, though.

The most common discrimination that visibly Muslim women -meaning the ones who wear a headscarf- face twofold is found in the labor market, according to several interviewees of this article and data which confirm that.

“The real fight for social justice exists when we fight for another human’s rights even if we don’t agree with or understand them”

— Hajar El Jahidi, European Forum of Muslim Women

Women wearing a headscart in the photo of their CV only received an invitation to a job interview in 3% of cases in Germany, according to a study on “Forgotten women” carried out in 2016 in eight European countries by the European Network Against Racism (ENAR). In Belgium, 44% of employers admitted that wearing a hijab could negatively influence the candidate’s selection.

Faced with incomprehension or rejection of Islamic feminism, the spokesperson of the European Forum of Muslim Women Hajar El Jahidi asks not to be marginalized: “The real fight for social justice exists when we fight for another human’s rights even if we don’t agree with or understand them.”

“It’s time for women especially to come together a lot more, to stand together in solidarity against all of these issues and not just speak but to act together and stand up for each other,” executive director of the Islamic Society of Britain, Julie Siddiqi, has asked on a video released by the British NGO Tell Mama. European Muslim women also want equality… and inclusion in the feminism movement.

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They will stay in the Spanish capital only for some weeks, due to the birth of the baby, as Alicia’s family lives there. But the couple’s home is in Luxembourg, where both work in the financial sector. When they met, did they think they would end up like this: married, with a daughter and living in the Grand Duchy? , the journalist asks. They look at each other and laugh. Their’s is a real story of love at first sight. Although the plan was to stay in Morocco, where they met and where Aladdin is from.

Alicia is from Madrid (Spain) and was in Casablanca (Morocco) finishing her master’s degree in banking and financial markets that she studied there. Her former professor Maite called her one day and asked whether she had something to do, recalls Alicia. Luckily enough, she did not have any plans for that evening, because otherwise she would not have been able to go to the dinner that her teacher organized that day with more alumni, and she would not have met Aladdin.

Alicia’s professor asked her whether she had something to do. Luckily enough, she did not, because otherwise she would not have met Aladdin

He was a student of the first class of that master’s degree she was completing six years later. As soon as they were introduced, the crush between each other began. Alicia’s smile conquered him… also her French accent, the language they share. She was fascinated by the serenity and maturity of a man who gave her good advice when she was lost about which traineeship to choose. “I advised her to stay in Morocco,” Aladdin laughs. He asked her phone number to Alicia and they started to go out together.

Almost four years later they continue laughing without stop, accomplices. Alicia López is now 29 years old and Aladdin Bennouna is 34. She is Catholic and he is Muslim.

When they were starting to know each other, Alicia remembers that she “liked to ask” things about Islam “to know where she was getting herself into”, because she was not an “expert” of her partner’s religion and did not trust things she found on the Internet.

Alicia’s smile conquered Aladdin… also her French accent. She was fascinated by the serenity and maturity of a man who gave her good advice when she was lost

“We gradually got to know each other on that aspect, too. Both are religions that can be complemented, that have points of convergence. I realized the important thing was what I felt for Aladdin, the values​ he has, which are very similar to mine. To be together, God willing, all your life, you need to find your soul mate and, look, it has been precisely with a person of another religion, from another country, but I am delighted, ” she says.

“Respect for the parents and family”, solidarity, not lying, God as a creator and protector… are some of the values cited by of them as their bond. They also share more mundane things, of course. They love to go to a good restaurant from time to time and enjoy travelling together. They recommend Peru and Chile, the destinations of their honeymoon.

“I realized the important thing was what I felt for Aladdin, the values​ he has, which are very similar to mine”

— Alicia

“I’m not gonna change you. I’m not going to force you to change to my religion, that’s not Islam either”

— Aladdin

Aladdin had no doubts about the difference in religion. “No, because I’m not gonna change you. I’m not going to force you to change to my religion, that’s not Islam either, ” he explains. “I respect her religion a lot, when she prays at home or goes to church I go with her and there’s no problem.” At home everyone prays separately and Aladdin likes to see his wife “close to God”.

The marriage proposal was a traditional one, in the presence of both families. “The surprise effect came (before), when he asked me ‘what ring do you like the most?'” , laughs Alicia. Knowing why they were going to meet did not make the moment less emotional: “Aladdin gave a speech in front of everyone and we all ended up crying,” recalls his wife. And that despite the fact that he improvised what he said.

Alicia and Aladdin’s wedding celebrated joining two cultures together. Family pictures

Alicia says that her parents have always granted her the power to make her own decisions and had no problem at all with the wedding. “My parents have been living a lot in Arab countries. My father (also) was assigned (as a diplomat) in Mauritania, Senegal, Morocco … I think that contributes a lot to open minds, ” she says.

Aladdin’s parents were also happy with the wedding. “And yes, look: there is a difference in religion, but in our religion you can marry a woman who believes in a ‘religion of heaven’, who is not an atheist or a Buddhist … Because in the Muslim religion you also have to believe [in a certain way] in the other religions, ” he explains.

“The mistake is to mix politics and religion. (And) of course migrants are to adapt to the laws of the country. Nor should these laws favour one religion over another”

— Aladdin

They married in 2017. The civil wedding was in Spain, and the most festive part was in Morocco, sharing “the richness of Moroccan culture” with the guests, says Alicia.

She believes that hate speech coming from politicians such as those of the Spanish Vox party are mainly due to what she calls a “climate of instability” at the border areas of Morocco and Spain because of what she considers a mismanagement of illegal immigration. “The mistake is to mix politics and religion. (And) of course migrants are to adapt to the laws of the country. Nor should these laws favour one religion over another, ” Aladdin suggests.

He likes to speak to her baby-daughter about politics when he gets to sleep her, because singing is not his thing, he admits. “I tell her: ‘let’s see, what do you want to talk about’? Brexit? “, he laughs. “Sometimes she does not like it and we change the subject,” he continues laughing. Lullabies are left to the mother.

“Amelia is Muslim, but she will grow up in an environment where nobody will say: ‘This is not that way’. There will be an atmosphere of respect and understanding of the two religions”

— Alicia

Little Amelia is Muslim, something that her parents already had talked about when they decided to start a family. But Christmas and the Festival of Sacrifice will be celebrated in their house equally, because they belong to the traditions and cultures of his grandparents, her mother explains. “She will grow up in an international environment, where nobody will say: ‘This is not that way’. There will be an atmosphere of respect and understanding of the two religions,” says Alicia.

Amelia has not woken up during the entire interview, nor when her parents have taken her in their arms to appear with them on some pictures. She is quiet and calm, while her caring parents cannot help but doting lovingly on her.

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The happy couple goes for a walk with their baby in Madrid. © Salam Plan

La entrada Alicia and Aladdin, the beautiful love story of a Catholic and a Muslim se publicó primero en Salam Plan.

Ramia Chaoui shows and speaks about all kind of things there: from make-up or how she got to know her husband to sharing the traditions of her other homeland, Morocco, or the problems Muslim people -like her- face in Spain.

She was recently invited to open a high-level meeting to counter Islamophobia, organized by the European Commission in Brussels. “We need to stop asking people like me how to integrate, because we don’t need to integrate in our own home”, she requested in front of the Justice European Commissioner, Vera Jourova, and other politicians representing European countries.

“We need to stop asking people like me how to integrate, because we don’t need to integrate in our own home”

She speaks with Salam Plan on the phone from Barcelona before going to work. For all those afraid of Muslims, Ramia points out “Islam is totally compatible with democracy, it just needs to be well understood”. For her, “being Muslim is trying to be a better person for oneself and for the others and everything that surrounds us”.

In your videos, you always greet by saying “salam zyonat”. What does that mean?

“Hi, beauties”. “Zeyn” is like beauty. I liked to open with something in Arabic, which also represents another part of my identity and my culture. I like to say hello that way, because it defines me. “Salam” means “peace” and is part of the Muslim greeting, and than all my videos are in Spanish, which is my mother tongue and the one I can better express myself in.

What made you open your own YouTube channel?

The lack of representation in mass media, searching for a place where I could express myself and talk about the issues where nobody listened to us, to have there my version of events without it being sweetened or censored.

Also, a little bit from an educational perspective. I listened to many questions around me about things I thought people knew well, stereotypes. Whenever I talked to new people who were hardly in touch with Muslims, I was very surprised to see the image they had about that part of the society.

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On Ramia Schannel you talk about all kind of things. What are the issues you like to speak more about?

At the beginning I made a lifestyle and entertainment channel, about how to combine the spiritual life with the non- Muslim Western normal life like any other girl of my age.

Now I have changed the focus to separate it a bit from the personal sphere and take it more to the activist field [against Islamophobia], but in a lighter way, not so hardcore. I have young followers and don’t want to be preachy.

I try to make the videos entertaining but at the same time with a message or moral of the story, or to explain something about Muslims, a Muslim festivity… so that people have a window to look into the life of a Western Muslim person and how our life is.

Earlier you said that one of the reasons to star your channel was tackling stereotypes about Muslims. Which ones would you highlight?

To get turned into a foreigner, that is one of the things which annoys me the most. For example, me living in Catalonia, that people speak to me in Spanish or slowly so that I can understand them… Those kind of things which people may do with good intentions, but I belong to the people who think that we’ve been here for a long time already and migration is nothing recent.

The fact that people are surprised that you have a degree, that you speak well the language, that you don’t have any accent…

And what affects me the most is the issue with the lack of equal opportunities and the discrimination, especially in the labour field for Muslim women.

“One of the things which annoys me the most is to get turned into a foreigner. Me living in Catalonia, that people speak to me in Spanish or slowly so that I can understand them”

In fact, there is a video in your channel where you explain that you are considering to take off your hijab.

It’s something you always bear in mind. Not now, but it’s true that all these years I have been wearing it, you ask yourself and weigh up: “Wow, it is really affecting me”. But well, than you remember why you put it on in the first place and what it means to you and you try to look ahead.

But that doesn’t mean you don’t have moments of doubts and difficulties… and understanding that other women face the same difficulties and finally take it off due to social pressure.

What difficulties have you encountered due to the hijab?

Mainly, being able to do job interviews and getting a job. They will choose someone who doesn’t wear it if you are equally qualified, or not so equally: you may be a bit more prepared or may be speak more languages. Nevertheless, the scales seems to tip to the other side.

The issue about doing a traineeship to get your degree, I get many messages from girls. Many of them see themselves forced to take it off or not doing the traineeship. I think Education should come first. Later in the labour market, I can understand that a company may be free to choose who it hires. But if a company chooses to offer traineeships to the students, it shouldn’t make a difference: they’re not your workers, they’re people who come to learn and will leave.

Me personally, I have seen myself obliged to accept another king of jobs, because I couldn’t choose the same way my fellow students did. I thought that was the way it goes. Although it might not have convinced me, I took the job to have one.

“The issue about doing a traineeship to get your degree… I get many messages from girls who see themselves forced to take the hijab off “

You have more than 38,000 followers. What kind of profile do they have?

They’re mainly female, 80% approximately. Spaniards and from other European countries, also from Mexico. Between 18 and 30 years old.

What kind of questions or comments do they have?

More than that, I think they see me a bit like an inspiration. If you see you’re not the only one facing problems or suffering, you don’t feel so lonely.

What happens sometimes is that these things stay in the community or within the family, you don’t speak about them that much. And you think it isn’t happening to nobody else and that you are the unlucky one.

I think that sharing and speaking about it, helps to fight against it. I try to motivate. There are girls who have even asked me why they should study if they’re not gonna get a job anyway. Loosing motivation like this is worrying.

I try to change the approach of the youngest girls. Feeling ashamed of your culture, of your religion, because they’re always speaking bad about it, because you don’t see positive examples, no examples of people who overcome [the problems]… But to see someone who -achieving more or less- follows her dreams, trying to change a bit -as much as possible-, I think it is good for our young ladies.

“There are girls who have even asked me why they should study if they’re not gonna get a job anyway”

You just mentioned something key, I think: that some people feel ashamed due to what is happening around them.

I have seen girls in their first adolescence years telling their mothers not to pick them up from school because she wears the veil and they don’t want to be seen with them.

Or now I see my little sister, who is very proud of her culture, but I remember that when I was little, I felt ashamed and didn’t want to go to school after our holidays in Morocco with henna on my hands. I tried to wash it off, because the kids told me it was pooh and laughed at me.

On the contrary, I now see generations, the youngest, who are very proud of their culture, with henna on their hands, wearing the veil… I think we should appropriate our culture again and be proud of who we are. Because it’s true that sometimes we have tried to hide to get unnoticed, without causing a stir: go to work, feed our children, sleep and back again to the beginning.

And it’s our generation now who is vindicating more the richness of having a diverse identity, a diverse origin, being from here but also from there and being a richer person thanks to that.

“Sometimes we Muslims have tried to hide to get unnoticed, without causing a stir: go to work, feed our children, sleep and back again to the beginning”

You recently shared your experience opening a high-level meeting in front of the Justice European Commissioner, Vera Jourova, and other politicians of the EU countries. There were also other Muslim activists and civil representatives. Do you think it was useful?

I am always very optimistic. I don’t know if I’m so optimistic that I’m naïf, but I want to think that it was indeed. And if it is useless from the political point of view, I think that the civil society there are loads of things being done. I was very happy and proud to see that representation, mainly a female representation, in that meeting. Whenever I see Muslim ladies, so trained and ready to fight, I feel proud as if it was a personal achievement. Whether it is useful or not, I have learned a lot.

Ramia Chaoui holding the opening speech at a high-level meeting in Brussels. © Salam Plan

That meeting was in the European capital. There are Europeans afraid of Muslims not respecting democracy. What would you tell them?

I’d tell them that Islam is totally compatible with democracy; it just needs to be well understood.

I think there is much misinformation or confusion around terminology related to Islam. Nobody studies it in depth, the only interest is to take those paragraphs or alleyahs [Q’ran verses] out of context which may benefit someone politically to sow fear and get votes. In the end, it’s this manipulation and using Islam as a weapon to get personal benefit.

In fact, a well understood Islam promotes democracy.

“A well understood Islam promotes democracy”

Why?

For example, if we simply focus on the prophet Muhammad’s life, we can see that he always consulted people surrounding him, he always asked for advice, and that being -as we understand it- God’s envoy. One of the main pillars of democracy is the public query, what the majority thinks.

In the recent regional elections in Andalusia (southern Spain), Vox’s party got 12 seats and Muslims are a key part of their politics. In their election platform, they devote a chapter to Muslims under the title “Defence, Security and Borders”.

[She laughs slightly]. Ok, how funny, how nice. I prefer to think that the majority of people doesn’t read the election manifesto nor is very well informed of what they vote, because otherwise, we wouldn’t drift in the current direction.

The defence of Spanish unity doesn’t need to go hand in hand with harming and loosing civil rights nor with more confrontation. I believe people who voted for Vox voted for Spanish unity.

Vox stands for issues like “shutting fundamentalist mosques” or the “expulsion of imams who spread fundamentalism, the despise of women or Jihad”.

With “expulsion” I guess they mean foreign imams, but there are Spanish imams. What do we do with that? And “despise of women”, it’s them who want to repeal the bill on gender violence. I think it is a cheap, simplistic and superficial populism.

How do you think Islamophobia Will evolve in the next years in Spain?

I think there is more consciousness and people are getting to know more about Islamophobia. I think it will keep that direction. I hope politicians will be more careful in their discourses. I hope the situation will get better: the integration of so many women with veil who are already working, including me; that normalization of seeing Muslim women in each and every sphere of society.

Your channel is also for non- Muslim people who want to know more. If you were to explain in just a few words what it means to you to be Muslim, how would you describe it?

Being Muslim is being like any other person, but having in the centre of his or her daily priorities -or values- to try to be a better person for oneself and for the others and everything that surrounds us; also being beneficial and contribute to society.

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Her dreams go beyond boxing and she is accomplishing them already as well. She studied a degree in Finance, Investment and Risk and currently works as a fundraiser at the Human Appeal NGO for Scotland. “I cannot imagine working in any other sector” than charity, she tells Salam Plan. In fact, she felt in love with boxing after organizing ladies- only classes as part of her job. She also enjoys being a DJ and host of her own radio show on Scotland’s only Community Asian Radio Station, Awaz FM.

Born and raised in Glasgow, Sannah (25) defines herself as a “curious young mind” and explains she likes “to meet people from different backgrounds and communities with their love for humanity as their common ground”. She has become an activist for different causes, especially for Muslim women like herself, and recently held a conference at the Mindful Drinking Festival in her city, when she answered Salam Plan’s questions.

“I get shocked looks when I begin to speak and people realise that I am extremely Scottish and a Muslim that wears a hijab”

The Mindful Drinking Festival vindicates the normalization of not drinking or moderating the drinking for all sorts of people. How is it not to drink alcohol in Scotland? Do you feel a social pressure to drink?

I have been born in a part of the world where drinking alcohol is a normal part of the majority’s life. I have been in scenarios where alcohol has been offered to me more than once. For example, during parties or at office evening outs at restaurants and bars.

I don’t think my faith has changed the pressure or offers I have been given. But there has definitely been a difference in reaction when some people realise you are Muslim and cannot hide their disgust in your decision.

Did you often get the question “how can you have fun without drinking”? What do you answer?

I have lost count of the number of times I have been asked this. But my simple response is that I don’t need to drink to have fun. I often ask a similar question…how can you have fun drunk? Which isn’t always taken well but sometimes gives people something to think about.

Do you miss more non-alcoholic drinks offer when you go out and about?

It can be frustrating sometimes that the options are so limited and (that there are) two or three options of soft drinks. It also sometimes baffles me that a lot of bars do not even offer mocktails, as though it is so much more effort to make when I’m not sure if it is! However, unlike those that drink alcohol, I don’t get much out of a soft drink other than my thirst quenched which is generally all I am looking for, so I’m never too upset for too long [she smiles].

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Do you have other difficulties or discrimination due to your faith?

I have never suffered from any real discrimination or discomfort due to my faith other than a shocked look when I begin to speak and people realise that I am extremely Scottish and a Muslim that wears a hijab. Before I started wearing a hijab my blond hair really confused non-Muslims and Asian people that did not venture far as they were both surprised that a white-Muslim could exist.

As a confident and enthusiastic young woman, I take it upon myself to interact with others to show how much more in common we have than what separates us.

Did you need to break many taboos to start boxing?

While a lot of people in the community were surprised about Human Appeal’s Ladies- only boxing class, the response was positive. Everyone I have spoken to, male and female, agreed it was a great idea. But I am not naive enough to think that there are not people that are not impressed. However, we have taken every measure possible to ensure the classes do not compromise faith and believe of our Muslim and Asian Community.

My biggest issue was in convincing others of the seriousness of my [exhibition] fight while having a disability and illness. Many thought my fight may be staged or that the gym was simply allowing me to live my dream. Whilst I do believe I am living the dream, the fight was very much serious and filled with risk. But I let my fists do the talking and remained focused. I may be visually impaired but when you are in the boxing ring and so close to your opponent, you use more senses than just sight.

“Whilst I do believe I am living the dream, the fight was very much serious and filled with risk. But I let my fists do the talking and remained focused”

How did you fall in love with boxing? 

After I started up the Ladies- Only Boxing Classes with the help of a colleague and volunteers from Human Appeal, I took part to promote and encourage its success. But after the first class, I found that training once a week was not enough and I began to attend more classes more regularly. My love of boxing grew from there.

Something about working alone, knowing that your success and failure is down to you and no one else, pushed me to try and prove to myself that I was capable. The ultimate way of doing this inevitably was by having my first fight, so when the opportunity arose I jumped at it. I never took no for an answer and pushed myself to be ready.

What makes the special sessions for women at the gym offer which is different from the other sessions?

The classes we provide are delivered by many experienced female coaches and the whole gym is shut to the rest of its members and staff at this time. Ladies and young girls can feel comfortable with wearing whatever they like as long as it is safe to work out in and can remove their hijabs if they wear one.

Those that attend have full access to the gyms facilities at this time; however, the coaches provide an excellent session which covers fitness and boxing technique. The best part is that the money made is donated to Human Appeal’s many charitable projects after paying the gym. We are currently reaching out to businesses and organisations and asking them to sponsor the classes on a month to month basis so that more money can be donated to charity.

“Knowing that your success and failure is down to you and no one else, pushed me to try and prove to myself that I was capable”

How did the idea of the women- only classes come along?

The classes simply started after a female volunteer disclosed to Human Appeal that she really wants to get back into boxing but because of her age her family do not feel comfortable with her working out alongside the men in the boxing gyms. After doing some research we realised this was how a lot of people felt and my colleague approached a gym to see if there was a middle ground. The gym was more than happy and since the classes started in February this year we have seen a lot more members from ethnic minority communities, both male and female, join the gym and taking part in other sessions that are provided.

Feedback has been very positive and we don’t feel as though we are treated any different from any other users of the gym. Our only issue has been finding a time that can suit everyone as many women have different responsibilities and cannot attend the weekly session we provide. Asking the gym to shut its doors to others is a huge ask and we are still working on expanding.

Sannah Hussain’s exhibition fight in Septembre 2018. © SK Boxing Promotions

Do you feel the hijab poses difficulties to Muslim women to do sports? Why?

Yes! Have you ever tried to work out while wearing a hijab? If you have not, I can tell you it is not easy or comfortable. It is hot, itchy and doesn’t stay put; it gets in the way and stops you from focusing on the work out. So if you cannot even train how can you compete?

Many companies now sell sports hijabs and while they may make things a lot easier they are not easy to get a hold of in the UK. They come from overseas, cost a lot and take ages to arrive and once you have it you may not like it because you never had the chance to try it on beforehand.

Although I am very welcomed in the gym, I have struggled to wear my sports hijab as I feel that I stand out and cannot fly in under the radar unlike those that don’t wear a sports hijab.

The difficulty extends to what one wears as well. As hijab is not just about covering your hair but about dressing modestly too (and) not many sports accommodate this either. Luckily as my fight was an exhibition, the gym were very flexible and allowed me to wear a long sleeved top, leggings and my sports hijab under my kit. But moving forward, what I wear could pose issues depending on the level I fight at.

“I feel that I stand out and cannot fly in under the radar unlike those that don’t wear a sports hijab”

How does Albinism and your auto-immune condition affect your boxing career?

Albinism and Myasthenia Gravis (MG) means that I will never have a professional boxing career. I am simply not fit or healthy enough to expect that of my body which, while sad, is a fact of life and not due to a lack of determination or motivation. It would be foolish for me to put myself in a position that could lead to a serious injury or force me to not want to box in any capacity.

However, I have really enjoyed my journey with boxing so far. My exhibition fight will be the highlight of the year and I will continue to train in the gym to stay in shape and on top of my technique. But I would never say never and if I am offered another exhibition fight, I will be likely to accept. [Sannah Hussain got the opportunity for a new exhibition fight on March 2019 after this interview had taken place.]

What would you say to other people suffering from Albinism or MG who want to make a sports career?

Not everything is about competing with others and simply allowing yourself to be part of something is important too. I have spent years in my childhood playing football and cricket and I was awful: I can never see well enough to keep up, but I remember enjoying myself. Maybe not every game was fun but being with friends and family was enjoyable and at least I can always say I tried my best.

But if you are serious about sports, get in touch with local clubs and organisations and ask to get involved. Try as many things as you can ‘till you find what is right for you! Understand it won’t be easy and be prepared for rejection. Sometimes you need to keep knocking on doors and revisit the same ones ‘till you find the right people to listen.

“To all the women fighting against discrimination and trying to overcome hurdles: you are not alone! Keep pushing forward, anything is possible”

You would like to make a boxing career.

In an ideal world I would love to have a boxing career but the factors that stop me are the factors that motivate me, so without my illness I don’t think I would have the same drive.

Do you have any wish for Muslim women in sports and in Scotland?

I wish that more Muslim women would be less fearful of being judged in any capacity or environment. In many cases people have opinions of Muslims that are easily changed through a friendly conversation and while some people’s opinions cannot be changed, we will never know until we try.

To all the women fighting a specific battle against discrimination and trying to overcome hurdles: you are not alone! Keep pushing forward, anything is possible.

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La entrada Sannah Hussain, the Scottish boxer who fights Albinism and discrimination se publicó primero en Salam Plan.