Marmash herself is a Jordanian lawyer who has an in-depth knowledge of women’s legal rights in North Africa and the Middle East and was therefore recently invited by the Spanish Agency for International Development Cooperation (AECID) to take part in a set of conferences of women’s rights in Madrid.

She talked about “women who are afraid to tell their own family” that they are being a victim of gender violence, she talked about laws which oblige adult women to depend on a male figure to exercise their right for property -just as it occurred in Spain only some decades ago-, she exposed the wide persistence of child marriages, “an open secret”, and assured there were 40,000 cases in Morocco in 2017, and another 10,000 in Jordan.

For this leading lawyer, who declares herself a Muslim feminist, patriarchy is a common phenomenon to the misleading historic interpretations of all religions. “I believe all religions begin with fair standards for women and men and, throughout history, they get changed to favour men,” she says to Salam Plan.

The international NGO she directs, AWLN, has set the priority to establish the path for women to be able to “take part in the construction of their societies” ameliorating the civil legal system of the Arab countries. Samah Marmash has seen how more and more men in the region are getting on board in the fight for equality, although not as actively as she would wish.

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Which accomplishments for women’s rights would you highlight in the Arab countries for the last years and what are the main issues you still need to address?

There were so many success stories in the region. For example, in Palestine they have created an Alimony Bureau; so, if a woman gets divorced [and does not get the legal maintenance from her ex husband], you can go to the office and ask them to file a case and get your money, even if the husband is not paying. This is very good to empower women economically and to show men, the Government will go after you and not after the vulnerable person.

In Jordan, we started something [similar] last year and it is on this year’s budget. We are at the beginning of the road, but the good example is Palestine. And we took another good example of Morocco. In Morocco they have family courts, where they review cases of violence against women, family cases or religious topics as well. It is [another] good example, [which] we want to reflect in our country in Jordan for the family violence cases.

The main issues you need to look at now are gender violence then?

Yes, violence against women; the right of nationality, to reflect it on their children [who for now cannot adopt the nationality of their mother in places like Jordan]; to stop child marriages… it’s for all of the region: North Africa or the Middle East. It’s a disease that is currently there. These are the main topics we should highlight now.

“Child marriages are a disease in North Africa and the Middle East that we need to stop”

What is the role of men in the Middle East in the fight for women’s rights?

They didn’t have a role at all. Actually, they were against the feminist movement; not all of them, but a large and good number of them. Recently, in the past ten years, we got them on board. We knew how important it was to make them our partners, because we cannot change attitudes if we work on one part of the community forgetting the other half.

When we started to work with them as partners, we had their voices with us. But they are not as large of an amount as you would wish. Most of them know that this is the trend nowadays, so [they] may talk with you about the same issues, they may try to show you that they are feminists, but in fact -whether they are helping or not- they are reflecting their attitudes on their policies, even in their homes, which is how you know if [their commitment] is true or not.

So, there are large voices of men who are supporting [the feminist movement], but not so many are truly on the ground. At least, we have a good start to work with them. Actually, they are helping us. In our Parliament in Jordan, for example, we have a few men who do believe in women’s rights which need to be reflected in the laws. In Lebanon, we [do also] have a good amount of fair men. In Syria now, nothing is clear yet.

“The attitudes of men on their policies, even in their homes, is how you know if their commitment to women’s rights is true or not”

During your conference, you talked about the influence of sharia on the rights or lack of them for women in the Middle East. To which extent would you say Islam is the reason of patriarchy in the region? Or is it tradition or…?

I believe all religions begin with fair standards for women and men and, throughout history, they get changed to favour men. It is not only in Arab countries. Europeans used to have it, but they used civil rights to change this idea.

We are still suffering from it, because after all the wars we have been through, we have not been able… the bad effect of wars is to give you traditions that you don’t have, ideas that you don’t have, bring you backwards, not forward… So, what we have is mostly in the name of religions, but it’s not us, it’s not religion. It’s the global force to keep persons backwards.

“I believe all religions begin with fair standards for women and men and, throughout history, they get changed to favour men”

You define yourself as a Muslim feminist.

Yes, and nowadays we have feminists from all the religions which are in the Arab region. Throughout the history we used to have Muslim feminist women, but the history does not highlight their efforts. For example, Mohammed’s first wife used to defend women’s rights, that is why she supported him.

But then again, this example refers to one of his wives, something which people often reject or do not understand.

Yes, exactly. But during her lifetime he did not marry any other woman. He did after her death, and according to our religion, he did so, because he wanted to gather so many people. For example, he wanted to show that it is good to marry a widow, so he got married to a widow. According to our law, there was a reason for every marriage, according to Q’ran it is not preferably to be married to more than one [woman], but there are certain circumstances and hard conditions where you can do so.

But, again, people change religions according to their needs: if you ask one sheikh, he will tell you ‘to have more than one wife is good’ and if you ask another religious man, he will tell you ‘no, there were conditions in the Q’ran under which you can do this’. Religions are always like that.

Samah Marmash, executive director of the Arab Women’s Legal Network. © Salam Plan

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The country went through a long civil war which lasted from 1975 to 1990 and, although it still faces many challenges, it is often mentioned as an example where different religions have been coexisting for decades. In recent years, it has also become the country with the highest concentration per capita of refugees in the world, due to the war in neighbouring Syria.

Fadi Daou is a Maronite Catholic priest in Lebanon, where he chairs the Adyan Foundation, ‘adyan’ meaning ‘religions’. With a team of people from different faiths, the Foundation works to improve the interreligious understanding in the country and worldwide. Daou has contributed to international policymaking speaking at the United Nations, the European Parliament and to the Arab League. Salam Plan talked with him during his recent stay in Madrid this week to take part in a seminar on Lebanon at the cultural centre Casa Árabe.

Lebanon is many times mentioned as an example of coexistence of religions. Is there a real together living or does every community rather stay within the group they belong to?

When we say coexistence it’s about managing the plural identity of the Lebanese society in a positive way: on the cultural, legal level and political levels.

Lebanon has officially 12 Christian communities, 5 Muslim and one Jewish community that are officially recognized by the Constitution. Of course, there is also the freedom of religion and the existence of other religions, but these are the historical ones in Lebanon.

So when we speak about coexistence, definitely we are speaking about an inclusive way of living together without the domination of one party over others. This is a very delicate balance, which Lebanon kept searching throughout its history and it ended up in the civil war. Today Lebanon is looking again to redefine this balance.

“When we speak about coexistence, we are speaking about an inclusive way of living together without the domination of one party over others”

Would you say this balance is currently working?

This balance is never working 100%, no. It’s always somewhere between 50% and 100%. Today we have some major challenges. One of them comes from the consequences of the civil war, where we had direct conflict from people of different communities. Now the communities are more segregated than before , so we are fighting stereotypes, healing wounds and also building knowledge through education to ensure that the Lebanese society is attached to its shared values before the conflict.

Another challenge is the huge number of refugees living in Lebanon. We see today how much the refugee and immigration issue is challenging Europe, although the proportion of refugees is really non-significant in comparison to what is happening in Lebanon. You have less than 1% of refugees compared to the European population, whereas in Lebanon we have more than 30%. It’s challenging, but at least we are avoiding that it generates conflict, although it is being sometimes used in populist political discourse. But, globally, the Lebanese society demonstrated a huge capacity of hospitality and solidarity.

Other type of challenges are more on the legal level, where we are trying to enhance this situation based on real equality and respect of human dignity and human rights for all citizens.

Lebanon hosts around 1.5 million refugees in a country of 4.5 million Lebanese people. The majority of refugees are Syrians and there are also Palestinians. What lessons can Europe learn from Lebanon about hosting refugees?

I would say, first it is to fight and refuse all political manipulation, because the refugee situation is always a humanitarian and humanistic situation and not at all an ideological and political one. Sometimes politicians in Europe are raising the fear among the population, saying for example that “we are being invaded” by people from outside Europe or by Muslims… All these discourses are definitely against the fundamentals of human rights, which make Europe what it is. The richness of Europe is because it is a space where, we believe, it respects human rights and dignity.

“Europe should not be afraid from the changes which are already happening and its new plural identity. Today all societies are diverse and it should be dealt with in a very realistic way”

The second lesson, is our responsibility of solidarity between each other. We don’t know when we will have to leave. Thirdly and finally, Europe should not be afraid from the changes which are already happening and its new plural identity. Many European societies were used to think themselves as one cultural identity, but today all societies are diverse and they will become more and more diverse. It should be dealt with in a very realistic way.

Diversity is a resource of richness. My Foundation uses the slogan “Diversity builds unity”. The challenge is not to try to stop diversity or the fear of otherness, the challenge is how to make of this diversity a resource of richness and unity in society.

The arguments you are giving don’t seem to convince any of the voters of the European politicians you were talking about, so I was hoping you could tell me something really practical which you would apply for diversity to work.

The first example would be to make people need each other and work with each other and collaborate to face their common problems. We are working to avoid segregation.

On an educational level, [you need] to know each other, because ignorance is a source of fear.

There is another aspect related to Islam. It is important to promote the discourse of Muslim thinkers, scholars and public figures who totally endorse human rights standards and an inclusive approach of living together. Give them a voice. It also can help Europeans to see Islam is also diverse. It has its own challenges and problems, but there are many Muslims who are working on this and they deserve support.

“The laicism of France is not at all my model. I advocate for an inclusive model based on a secular political system, respecting diversity as well as the freedom and richness of each community”

You advocate for the separation of religion from politics. Would the laicism of France be your model?

Not at all. In fact, I don’t advocate for a separation, I advocate for an inclusive citizenship, which means that religion should not be the framework of living together. We need to establish a citizenship system that can recognize the diversity of religions but prevent religious authorities from interfering in politics.

It’s not the French model, it’s more an inclusive model based on a secular political system, but a system that is also inclusive to all diversity, respecting the freedom but also respecting the richness of each community and what it brings to societies.

Some people argue Islam cannot be democratic. What do you think?

Those people lack a historic perspective of democracy, because in the 19^th century Christianity and Catholicism were against democracy too. Any stigmatisation saying that Islam is not compatible with democracy is completely unrealistic, it’s not true. There are very good Muslims democrats in Lebanon and there are also Muslims who are against democracy.

“Any stigmatisation saying that Islam is not compatible with democracy is completely untrue. Some populist parties in Europe are against the values of democracy”

But I think some [non-Muslim] extremists here and even Europe, some populist parties are themselves against the values of democracy. It is true in many Muslim societies today that democracy is a challenge, but it is not about Islam, it is about interests and politics. The young generations are striving to build democracy in their countries.

So, I don’t think there is a religion which is more democratic than others; it’s about culture, about people, about the value system.

Do you think the rise of policies against Muslims in Europe and the United States are announcing a new form of Nazism?

I hope not. I think these waves of populism and extreme right parties are too serious not to be taken into consideration. It can one day lead to totalitarianism. We should remember that Hitler arrived to power democratically. The Western countries have to be very careful about this.

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Wiretapping Muslims and Arabs in a generalized way for considering them “potential terrorists” happened for the first time in the 60’s of last century, professor Louise Cainkar of the Catholic Jesuite Marquette University in Wisconsin explained. At that time, Arab visiting students were interviewed and controlled by agencies like the NSA. They were “threatened” with deportation if they acted for Palestine in the context of the Six-Day War of June 1967.

“With Richard Nixon, the profiling program of Arabs and Muslims got institutionalized”

— Louise Cainkar

With Richard Nixon as president of the US, the “profiling program got institutionalized”, Cainkar said. The so-called “Operation Boulder”, was “a program that scrutinized the activities of Arab Americans and profiled visa applicants with Arab sounding names”, Sarah Laskow explained in the Columbia Journalism Reviewin 2013. The ‘Declassification Engine’ built up by history professor at Columbia University Matthew Connelly revealed it. In 1972 an article in the Washington Post informed about 2,000 students found “deportable” and 400 students had left their country on their own, the Marquette professor highlighted.

‘Operation Boulder’ was one of the first governmental moves to islamophobia, according to the panel at WOCMES.

“The discourses, representations and policies shifted after the Iranian Revolution. From Arab to this much wider group of Muslims”, she said. That was when the “Middle East” concept came into place. While ‘Arab’ and ‘Muslim’ do not mean the same thing, American policies seem to have treated both as synonymous. In fact, professor Erik Love from the Dickinson College in Pennsylvania, defended during the panel in Seville that “islamophobia is racism, [as] it fits neatly into American’s tradition of white supremacy”.

Trump’s “age is an intensification in anti- Muslim animus but not a turning point; it has reached a new watermark”, Jameel Haque summarized. This History professor at Minnesota State University describes himself as well as Muslim activist in the US. “My authority as an expert is continuously challenged as are historic facts [I present]”, he complained about one of the challenges he faces in his work.

“Trump’s age is an intensification in anti- Muslim animus but not a turning point”

— Jameel Haque

To him, “what is new in the Trump era is that the federal government is complicit” and gives a “microphone” to hate groups. He feels he always has had to challenge what he calls “islamofiction”, but at present there are two new aspects into it: a “Muslim ethnic and racial significance” and that “Muslim natives of the US are viewed as foreigners and suspicious”.

In this respect, he recalled the episode on Barack Obama’s birth certificate and his alleged Muslim faith as a matter of suspicion. Not only there was an anti-Muslim discourse there by Donald Trump, but Obama always challenged this by “affirming his Christian faith”. For Jameel Haque this was “implied islamophobia”, the same as maintaining the Guantanamo camp.

Love reminded of another episode in the past election campaign during the debate between Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump with questions of the audience include. One woman asked: “With Islamophobia on rise, how will you help people like me not to be seen as a threat?”. Trump answered with more security and Clinton “accepted the premise” of relating Muslims to security issues with what Love defines as a “softer islamophobia”. She answered: “We need American Muslims to be part of our Homeland security”.

Haque stated US textbooks have always included “misconceptions” about Muslim and Arab people, like speaking about the “Reconquista” against Muslims, who are never called Europeans but referred to by their faith. Haque believes an “update of our [educational] curriculum should be a forward step towards understanding”.

He also proposes activists to build a community of diverse minority groups, not only ethnic, cultural or religious groups but also others like LGBT, for example. He believes a unified work would help them have their own political voice more represented.

WOCMES takes place every four years in a different city. This year it has been organized in Seville by the Three Cultures Foundation and about 3,000 researchers and experts from around 91 countries have registered to take part in this academic summit which will last until Friday, the 20^th of July.

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